Lions-Tour.com - Well done Brendan Venter

6th January 2010	#11
Zinny. Lions Legend Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Auckland International Team: AllBlacks Club Team: Blues Posts: 11,336	Re: Well done Brendan Venter ............... __________________ .

6th January 2010

#12

Zinny.

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Re: Well done Brendan Venter

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurentian

You make it sound like this is the 1st time anyones ever moaned about the ref, it's been happening since the beginning of sport, will continue...fact of life, people moan, in fact the Brits invented it. Venter simply spoke his mind, he'd been through the proper channels & got fed up with it, he's gone to the media & only now have the refs paid attention &...well....um...apologized....apologized for what I wonder, oh that's right, for their mistakes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurentian

You may not have a thriving junior soccer scene in NZ but one only has to stand on the touchline of a kids game over here and listen to the abuse meted out to refs by players and parents alike to see what I mean - If Arsene, or Sir Alex or Rafa does it, it must be OK. Right? How the hell anyone loves the game of soccer enough to want to take up refereeing is beyond me. The same Premiership managers then have the temerity to say that the standards are falling - see (4) below.

3) Would-be referees, seeing the likes of Venter saying what he has said, and looking at the soccer model, are discouraged from taking up refereeing - regardless of your views on the pro vs amateur referee debate, if there are no amateurs taking up the whistle at junior level today, there will be no one to fill the boots of retiring referees tomorrow. Fact. No one starts out as a pro ref.

4) If less people turn to refereeing in general, the standard of refereeing at the highest level CAN ONLY GET WORSE as there is a smaller pool of talent going forward (lowest common denominator and all that). Therefore Venter's comments are completely counterproductive and against the interests of the game as a whole. If you want to improve the standard of refereeing at all levels, get more people to start refereeing. Simples.

.

If there's a pathway to a prosperous career through reffing, there'll always be enough in supply.
If a ref is being paid well to do a job then he should be made accountable for his mistakes just like the players are, why are they beyond criticism? because we might run out of refs if we give them a hard time? FFS mun.

& if the parents of the kids are gonna start abusing the refs because they saw Brendan Venter do it then Britain & it's people really do have issues. I saw Stone Cold Steve Austin bodyslam a ref a few years back........watch out Jonny Kaplan, YOUR ASS IS MINE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurentian

The beauty of football (association) is its simplicity. No hands, no playing off the pitch, stick the ball between the posts and you've got a goal - most goals at the end of 90 minutes/break time wins. A couple of laws thrown in to make sure you don't hurt each other severely and thats it. Millions play every day with no referee at all.

Rugby is very different. It's beauty lies in power, pace, contact, stamina and, often subtle, technical execution within very finite boundaries. It is played with aggression bordering on rage at times and more emotion than a thousand games of soccer could ever have. These things need governing throughout the course of a game - ergo no ref, no game.
.

Soccers for fags mate, sorry, & I dont really want gang members involved in rugby, Id prefer that it was supported by the same kind of blokes who play it.
As for the rules, I never said to do away with the ref completely. What I meant was to free up the breakdown & remove all the rubbish laws associated with it, sure, foul play & handling errors need to be reffed in this department, let the players sort it out, not rely on referees 50/50 interpretations to decide a game.
Once the breakdown is black & white, we wont be talking about referees anymore.
IMO refs aren't thick, the breakdown just poses too many impossible scenarios & they're forced to act on something...anything...as long as it's a penalty to someone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurentian

The top and bottom of my argument is this: Do Venter's remarks IN THE MEDIA serve the wider Game or not.

.

Since when was it Venters job to serve the game? He is the coach of a team which is run like a business. He doesnt have to give a flying **** about the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurentian

Finally, as far as Rugby being a simple game "made over complicated to shut the British PC brigade up & allow for the poofter kids who probably should have stuck to Wendyball" goes, you're having a laugh!!

There is a bit of truth in that. Ive coached Pommy kids & in all fairness, I can see why the vast majority of Pommy blokes are the way they are.....thank God for the Northern part, they greatly increase the Pommy average.

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurentian

From where I'm sitting the vast majority of law changes in the last 15 years have been driven through by southern hemisphere supremos pandering to the god of continuity in the name of a more "attractive product" to better woo the sponsors and advertisers associated with the Game. But we've been there many times before.

Shock horror, we like our rugby to be a bit sexy, it comes with having taste & class.
Right now, there's only 1 team on Earth capable of making rugby look lovely against anyone & it sure as hell aint the Poms.

On 1 side we have the majority of test sides (for example) who drag the game into a pit fight through sheer lack of skill & finesse, they cant do the razzle dazzle so they have to "spoil". Then you have the 2 or 3 teams which fight to keep the game flowing, attractive & enjoyable for all involved, I know what side of the fence Im on & it obviously aint yours.

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8th January 2010

#13

sslazio11

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Re: Well done Brendan Venter

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurentian

Oh dear!

There are several points that either you have missed, or I haven't made clear.

1) Regardless of the perceived ineptitude of the referee in question, his application of the laws or inability to make the correct decision as seen by Andre Venter, Venter should have voiced his opinion and/or displeasure through the correct channels NOT the media.

2) When figures such as Venter do this, it filters down to all levels of the game making referees fair game for anyone (players, supporters and club officials alike) not happy with a games progress or outcome. It legitimizes moaning about the ref.

You may not have a thriving junior soccer scene in NZ but one only has to stand on the touchline of a kids game over here and listen to the abuse meted out to refs by players and parents alike to see what I mean - If Arsene, or Sir Alex or Rafa does it, it must be OK. Right? How the hell anyone loves the game of soccer enough to want to take up refereeing is beyond me. The same Premiership managers then have the temerity to say that the standards are falling - see (4) below.

3) Would-be referees, seeing the likes of Venter saying what he has said, and looking at the soccer model, are discouraged from taking up refereeing - regardless of your views on the pro vs amateur referee debate, if there are no amateurs taking up the whistle at junior level today, there will be no one to fill the boots of retiring referees tomorrow. Fact. No one starts out as a pro ref.

4) If less people turn to refereeing in general, the standard of refereeing at the highest level CAN ONLY GET WORSE as there is a smaller pool of talent going forward (lowest common denominator and all that). Therefore Venter's comments are completely counterproductive and against the interests of the game as a whole. If you want to improve the standard of refereeing at all levels, get more people to start refereeing. Simples.

The beauty of football (association) is its simplicity. No hands, no playing off the pitch, stick the ball between the posts and you've got a goal - most goals at the end of 90 minutes/break time wins. A couple of laws thrown in to make sure you don't hurt each other severely and thats it. Millions play every day with no referee at all.

Rugby is very different. It's beauty lies in power, pace, contact, stamina and, often subtle, technical execution within very finite boundaries. It is played with aggression bordering on rage at times and more emotion than a thousand games of soccer could ever have. These things need governing throughout the course of a game - ergo no ref, no game.

The top and bottom of my argument is this: Do Venter's remarks IN THE MEDIA serve the wider Game or not.

Finally, as far as Rugby being a simple game "made over complicated to shut the British PC brigade up & allow for the poofter kids who probably should have stuck to Wendyball" goes, you're having a laugh!!

Best post I've seen on here. It would have been perfect only for the use of the phrase "going forward".

17th January 2010	#14
Rimmer Growing Mane Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 162	Re: Well done Brendan Venter Excellent post Laurentian. __________________ Ons bloed is blou .................................................. .........................................wait fot it

18th January 2010

#15

laurentian

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Re: Well done Brendan Venter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinny.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinny.

there's a pathway to a prosperous career through reffing, there'll always be enough in supply.
If a ref is being paid well to do a job then he should be made accountable for his mistakes just like the players are, why are they beyond criticism? because we might run out of refs if we give them a hard time? FFS mun.

Oh I love it! if theres a pathway to a prosperous career in anything there is likely to be "enough in supply", the issue, Zinny, is the QUALITY and the effect on the quality of professional refereeing that a smaller pool of up and coming amateurs has on it. If someone asked me to be a hedge fund manager for a banking corporation at a salary of £3,000,000 pa plus a big fat bonus, I'd bloody jump at it but I don't think my clients would be too impressed after a couple of months! If however, the same bank asked a junior manager to take on the role, I suspect they may enjoy a little more success.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinny.

if the parents of the kids are gonna start abusing the refs because they saw Brendan Venter do it then Britain & it's people really do have issues. I saw Stone Cold Steve Austin bodyslam a ref a few years back........watch out Jonny Kaplan, YOUR ASS IS MINE!

Venter is a role model (look it up) and what has the Six Million Dollar Man got to do with anything?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinny.

for fags mate, sorry, & I dont really want gang members involved in rugby, Id prefer that it was supported by the same kind of blokes who play it.
As for the rules, I never said to do away with the ref completely. What I meant was to free up the breakdown & remove all the rubbish laws associated with it, sure, foul play & handling errors need to be reffed in this department, let the players sort it out, not rely on referees 50/50 interpretations to decide a game.
Once the breakdown is black & white, we wont be talking about referees anymore.
IMO refs aren't thick, the breakdown just poses too many impossible scenarios & they're forced to act on something...anything...as long as it's a penalty to someone.

You could be right (could) but it is not the execution of the referee's duty that is at issue (with me) here, its the way that Venter has chosen to vent his frustration - he may well be justified but should not comment to the media in the way he did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinny.

when was it Venters job to serve the game? He is the coach of a team which is run like a business. He doesnt have to give a flying **** about the game.

. . . err golden egg?, goose? kill?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinny.

is a bit of truth in that. Ive coached Pommy kids & in all fairness, I can see why the vast majority of Pommy blokes are the way they are.....thank God for the Northern part, they greatly increase the Pommy average.

Sorry mate, lost me here . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinny.

horror, we like our rugby to be a bit sexy, it comes with having taste & class.
Right now, there's only 1 team on Earth capable of making rugby look lovely against anyone & it sure as hell aint the Poms.

On 1 side we have the majority of test sides (for example) who drag the game into a pit fight through sheer lack of skill & finesse, they cant do the razzle dazzle so they have to "spoil". Then you have the 2 or 3 teams which fight to keep the game flowing, attractive & enjoyable for all involved, I know what side of the fence Im on & it obviously aint yours.

As with everything Zinny, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. . .

By the way, it would appear that the powers that be have the temerity to disagree with you too Zinny - Venter is up on a disrepute charge due to his comments!

Last edited by laurentian; 18th January 2010 at 10:57 AM..

18th January 2010

#16

TaffinEastbourne2

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Re: Well done Brendan Venter

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurentian

I don't really want to get get into an argument about this but the above is just wrong - and categorically so. As I understand it, he was interviewed post match - he had not been through the proper channels - how could he? the final whistle had only just gone!

Oh I love it! if theres a pathway to a prosperous career in anything there is likely to be "enough in supply", the issue, Zinny, is the QUALITY and the effect on the quality of professional refereeing that a smaller pool of up and coming amateurs has on it. If someone asked me to be a hedge fund manager for a banking corporation at a salary of £3,000,000 pa plus a big fat bonus, I'd bloody jump at it but I don't think my clients would be too impressed after a couple of months! If however, the same bank asked a junior manager to take on the role, I suspect they may enjoy a little more success.

Venter is a role model (look it up) and what has the Six Million Dollar Man got to do with anything?

You could be right (could) but it is not the execution of the referee's duty that is at issue (with me) here, its the way that Venter has chosen to vent his frustration - he may well be justified but should not comment to the media in the way he did.

. . . err golden egg?, goose? kill?

Sorry mate, lost me here . . .

As with everything Zinny, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. . .

By the way, it would appear that the powers that be have the temerity to disagree with you too Zinny - Venter is up on a disrepute charge due to his comments!

Trying to make Zinny see sense is slightly harder than juggling jelly.Save your energy!!!

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19th January 2010

#17

Zinny.

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Re: Well done Brendan Venter

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurentian

He feels, rightly or wrongly that over a period of weeks, referees have cost his team vital competition points & that he's been screwed over, that's his honest opinion & I'd rather that than some bullshit excuse for losing to keep the censors happy, if he can back up what he's saying with facts, which he's obviously done & which is why he's received an apology for the inept refereeing then he's simply telling it how it is.
One of the biggest challenges facing rugby is the huge amount of grey in the game & a lot of it sadly comes down to interpretations of referees.

In my opinion, the laws make it nearly impossible to be fair & consistent & it needs to be addressed, refs are only human & their job needs to be made easier but while injustices are happening they're the unfortunate ones in the firing line because they are the only ones in a position to make the contest as fair as possible.

Why can't refs be made to be accountable for their performances? Coaches & players are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurentian

Venter is a role model (look it up) and what has the Six Million Dollar Man got to do with anything?

He's a coach of a team in a pretty tough landscape. He gets paid to coach, if his team sucks then he loses his job, that role model stuff is secondary. Every fibre in his body should be aimed at making his team as successfull as possible. Now he's trying to make refs aware of the lengths he'll go to in order to not get screwed over again, good on him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurentian

Oh right because it's gonna scare up & coming refs out of the game because "how dare they be held accountable"

In a perfect world, everything you've said is bang on, but rugby is in a recession, test rugby is crap, S14 is crap, HC is crap & something needs to be done about it. People are voting with their feet, the product is not what it used to be & fans & players alike all over the world are getting pretty ****ed off. The All Black coaches for example say exactly the same thing but in a more controlled manner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurentian

Sorry mate, lost me here . . .

It was about the top notch buggers in the Northern part of your country, not the poofy London type who'd be too scared to get their kids into rugby because it's too rough, the PC Brigade capital of the world, the ones who were the quickest to see the end of a fair contest at the breakdown IE rucking but that's another argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurentian

By the way, it would appear that the powers that be have the temerity to disagree with you too Zinny - Venter is up on a disrepute charge due to his comments!

Could it be that the powers that be are the problem?

Maybe off topic now buy In 2007 even before the WC, everyone down here had the insight to see where top level rugby was heading, into the gutter if something wasnt done about it.
The 3 most lacklustre, boring, negatively defensive teams took the top 3 spots at the RWC, they felt it more prosperous to kick the ball away rather than to play some footy with it & they were 100% on the money because that is how the rules dictated the way the game had to be played because skill, tempo & attacking flair was far too risky for their ability.
In 2008 the ELVs were introduced & to begin with it was mayhem, scrappy, unstructured & all over the place but as they evolved & teams got used to them we were beginning to see some beautifull rugby for first time in ages, as soon as it looked like it was on the right track the people up North who lack the skill & natural ball playing ability to play decent footy realised that they had no idea how to attack & we went back to the overly defensive tripe we have today.
The ELVs were written off before they were given a chance up North rendering the whole experiment a huge waste of time. They may not have produced amazing rugby week in week out but they'd sure as hell be better than the crap I watched in the HC over the weekend.

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19th January 2010

#18

laurentian

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Re: Well done Brendan Venter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinny.

But he wasn't commenting on "a period of weeks", he was talking about the previous 40 minutes of Rugby - the referee's second half performance - it sounded awfully like a "bullshit excuse for losing" to me! He didn't "back it up with facts", he backed it up with his own opinion. I'll say it again, I haven't got a problem with him complaining about the referee, I have got a problem with him doing it on live TV. His issue was with more penalties being given against his side in the second half of the game than in the first (relative to the opposition). Now, whether that is the case or not, Venter's comments suggest bias on the part of the referee - surely the most serious of allegations to be made against any referee in any game.

Referees can and should be made accountable for their performances but this should be done through the refereeing societies, not by a disgruntled team coach on live TV. It amounts to trial without jury.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinny.

a coach of a team in a pretty tough landscape. He gets paid to coach, if his team sucks then he loses his job, that role model stuff is secondary. Every fibre in his body should be aimed at making his team as successfull as possible. Now he's trying to make refs aware of the lengths he'll go to in order to not get screwed over again, good on him.

Oh right because it's gonna scare up & coming refs out of the game because "how dare they be held accountable"[/QUOTE]

Firstly, its debatable as to whether he was "screwed over" in the first place and secondly making "refs aware of the lengths he'll go to in order not to get screwed over again" sounds like the sort of intimidation that we are all too familiar with up here in the case of Premiership football - I get the suggestion of an impression from the content of many of your previous posts that you would not like Rugby Union to mimic Association Football - this would be one massive step in that direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinny.

a perfect world, everything you've said is bang on, but rugby is in a recession, test rugby is crap, S14 is crap, HC is crap & something needs to be done about it. People are voting with their feet, the product is not what it used to be & fans & players alike all over the world are getting pretty ****ed off. The All Black coaches for example say exactly the same thing but in a more controlled manner.

And there, in a nutshell, is the crux of the issue. If all that was at stake here was the "showbiz" rugby of test, S14 HC etc., I don't think I'd be as bothered.

I enjoy this level of Rugby and always will but I am getting more and more disillusioned with the movement towards a "product" and the departure from the sport's core values - more in the domestic competitions than the international arena. Anything that discourages sufficient numbers of referees coming into the game at the bottom is bad for the game at every level.

Of course, it is not right for referees to be beyond reproach. If they do a poor job, they should be accountable for it. This accountability and culpability should be assessed by the proper bodies and appropriate remedial action taken by them. It should not be assessed or commented on on live TV by a hacked off coach with more than one vested interest in blaming the performance of the referee for his team's loss. Whether or not he was justified.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinny.

was about the top notch buggers in the Northern part of your country, not the poofy London type who'd be too scared to get their kids into rugby because it's too rough, the PC Brigade capital of the world, the ones who were the quickest to see the end of a fair contest at the breakdown IE rucking but that's another argument.

Zinny, I could tell you that the ruck was over as a contest as soon as Southern Hemisphere referees began to overlook the "release the ball as soon as you're on the ground" law and allowed players to "place" the ball on their side of the ruck. As this departure from the laws spread, the laws were changed to allow this. Hence rucking is no longer the fierce contest it was - whats the point? Its got nothing to do with "London PC" and everything to do with the SH desire for continuous rugby

Athletic and choreographed as a modern lineout is, there was a time when lifting was not allowed and the athleticism of the jumpers and timing of the thrower was everything in securing your own ball. Pressure on referees to "let the game flow" by overlooking "support" of the jumper and then lifting, means that the contest that used to go on in the line out has gone the same way as the ruck. I shudder to say it, but look at the crooked feed in scrums and the reluctance of referees to continually reset a scrum until it is right and instead give penalties at just about every scrum in some games. All to make the game "flow" - how long before the scrum becomes a non-contest like Rugby League?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinny.

it be that the powers that be are the problem?

Not in this case. Venter is on a disrepute charge for accusing the referee of bias in favour of the opposition on live TV. I have no axe to grind with him but I can't be convinced that this is acceptable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinny.

off topic now buy In 2007 even before the WC, everyone down here had the insight to see where top level rugby was heading, into the gutter if something wasnt done about it.
The 3 most lacklustre, boring, negatively defensive teams took the top 3 spots at the RWC, they felt it more prosperous to kick the ball away rather than to play some footy with it & they were 100% on the money because that is how the rules dictated the way the game had to be played because skill, tempo & attacking flair was far too risky for their ability.
In 2008 the ELVs were introduced & to begin with it was mayhem, scrappy, unstructured & all over the place but as they evolved & teams got used to them we were beginning to see some beautifull rugby for first time in ages, as soon as it looked like it was on the right track the people up North who lack the skill & natural ball playing ability to play decent footy realised that they had no idea how to attack & we went back to the overly defensive tripe we have today.
The ELVs were written off before they were given a chance up North rendering the whole experiment a huge waste of time. They may not have produced amazing rugby week in week out but they'd sure as hell be better than the crap I watched in the HC over the weekend.

. . . better stick to watching your fast, flowing, high skill level, natural ball playing, running, sparkly NZ teams then

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